Jivana Heyman 0:00
Hi everyone, its Jivana I just want to come on for a moment and thank our sponsor offering tree. They're an all in one easy to use community back business that saves you time, energy and money as a yoga teacher. Offering tree allows you to create a website in less than 30 minutes. Plus you get a discount to accessible yoga. Just go to offering tree.com backslash accessible yoga to get your discount today. Okay, here's our episode.
Anjali Rao 0:31
Welcome to the Love of Yoga Podcast. I'm your host Anjali Rao. This podcast explores the connections between the teachings of yoga for self and collective transformation.We dive into how spirituality and philosophy can ignite social change. I share conversations with folks who are on the frontlines of justice and liberatory movements, thought leaders and changemakers disruptors and healers. The Dalai Lama is a symbol of hope for millions, and has given the world so much so generously for decades. The world saw an edited clip of the Dalai Lama and a child that went viral a few weeks ago. Many non Tibetans, practitioners of Buddhism and yoga were numb, outraged, shocked, dismayed at an interaction that brought up much discomfort based on personal and collective history of harm and abuse by religious leaders and yoga teachers who have misused and abused their power. Since then, Tibetan leaders, activists, practitioners, and people from the community and their allies have spoken up about how this has been listened to printed an expression of affection, a phrase often used by Tibetan elders misconstrued. Today, we will back this further unpack this further, with Chemi Lhamo. A repeat guest on the podcast. Chemi is a community leader, a human rights activist, often called to speak about Tibet on global platforms. Jimmy a very warm welcome to you to the podcast. I know you have been talking nonstop and sharing and working nonstop on this for the past few weeks, and you probably are exhausted and I so appreciate you coming to the podcast on such a short notice to have this conversation. How has the past few days been for you personally, and what has come up in the community?
Chemi Lhamo 3:07
To be honest, all my life I've never really been short of words. I am an expressive person. I'm vocal about the challenges that we face as community, whether it is the Tibetan community, whether it's my student union, whether it's issues of being a product alien, locally based in Toronto, in Canada. However, when this news came out last week, for the first three days, I just couldn't believe the world's response to this edited clip that was going viral. Because there is 87 years a lifetime of dedication to spreading the message of peace, love humanity, teachings on wisdom and compassion that the world has just only cooperated only absorbed tremendously to a point where we've revolutionized neuroscientists conversations about how to talk on positive psychology, the research on altruism, all of these have actually rooted from conversations that came from the Mind and Life Institute which His Holiness the Dalai Lama had created. So there was a lifetime a plethora of just give, give give from our community. And all of that was just completely judged and nullified by a couple of seconds clips that the world saw and perceived by their own perspectives that are driven by worldly concerns, and also a very hyper sexualized narrative. And that perspective, was used to completely nullify or supersede that lifetime of dedication of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, and also the people, the Tibetan people and their allies and supporters who, whose existence is actually because of someone like His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, if it wasn't for his holiness, we wouldn't be here today, the 150 Plus Tibetan 1000s, of Tibetans that live in exile, it's only because of his holiness that came into exile and gave us land in India and Nepal, allowed us to, you know, emigrate into different Western countries. None of that would have been possible, I wouldn't be here today in front of you, if it wasn't for the institution that is almost built, like the Tibetan children's village, which was actually an orphanage, but also a school that takes care of children, Tibetan children from, you know, pre preschool to grade 12. And all of that was possible. And here they have semi orphan kids, and I say semi orphan because their parents are still stuck inside of Tibet. And so these kids who are basically orphaned, because of a political geopolitical issue, they went to school to TCV, where they had mothers. And these mothers are pseudo mothers that were taking care of, like 40 children or 20 children, and everybody calls them Amala, between mother. And so this is the environment that we grew up in, and we owe our whole existence and entire life students all next, the dorm, and his reputation, and his name came into question, not only just came into question was completely stained, without even looking up what His Holiness is, or means, and has dedicated his life to, not to mention, he's an 87 year old celibate monk, a Buddhist monk. So it's been hard to say the least millions, millions of Tibetans crying, have been weeping every day and night. And it's been quite the challenge to see how the world has turned their back on us, despite always taking away our knowledge and wisdom from us.
Anjali Rao 6:54
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And then can you unpack what happened? Again, I know I, I, it's all out there on the internet. And people are, you know, writing articles about how how gesture of affection has been misinterpreted, that the language was misconstrued. There are articles out there. And there are many who read it and still still say that, you know, the child did not look comfortable or any, you know, the, are we sure that abuse did not happen. All of that, right? There is still pushback from a large population. Can you unpack again, for us, please, for the listeners?
Chemi Lhamo 7:41
Sure. As humans, we're complex beings. When we take in a moment, we don't take in a moment with a single narrative, nor a single experience or a single part of your identity, you are a complex being that brings a lot of experiences, memories, your intergenerational trauma that you bring along with you. And so when we take in a moment or any situation, language, culture, and context is defined, and must be defined, and when we look and judge a situation, I urge you all to look at the language, the culture and the context of the situation. There's two types of contexts that we can break down the situational context and the cultural context. So when folks watch this video, I'm sure many of you as the world has responded were uncomfortable because of the given history of abuse by folks in power, specifically men in religious institutions. I understand that. That's the world that we live in currently in terms of the Western context. And that is a hatred that people have built up towards folks in power that are the abused their, their power to be able to take advantage of young children. And it's real, I understand that. You must also understand that we the Tibetans, who are speaking up about this issue, are also humans that understand that context. We're not blindsided. We're also mothers, human beings that have been fighting for child rights abuses, and making sure that fighting against child rights abuses, and making sure that we center the voices of folks that are affected, or victims of these abuses, and hence become survivors. So this incident for us when we perceive this incident, was a display of affection, warmth, humor and sincerity. For folks that were uncomfortable, I understand that and so let's unpacking the language, you must understand that in our medical culture, there is no concept of the word sack being sexualized. The word job is actually suck into men. You know a pacifier for a child when you give them a pacifier what it's called to do. So that's one context and other context. When I was young, my mom, she used to suck the snot out of my nose. And see, you know, some of you may find that disgusting. But she used to do that, not just to me, but you know, my friends and kids that were chilling around while they were trying to make a living in South India. Because the reason why is because you know that when you have colons, and you would, your nose is runny, you will use tissues, when you use a lot of tissues on your nose, what happens here gets irritating, right, it becomes a little red. And so, so that my parents to avoid the irritation on our skin to avoid the harm, that deep love and care that they have for us is expressed through such actions, because these things are not sexualized, when my parents get old, and if they're no longer able to chew, I would chew the food for them and pass it out to mouth and feed them just the way they did when I was young. And I couldn't chew. I remember my teenage sister who is like probably 16. And she got measles. And her tongue was irritated either measles or some type of pox, chickenpox, probably. But she couldn't chew. And because my mom was away working, my dad would chew the food and pass it mouth to mouth. And she's 16 and a teenager, some folks might find that disgusting. But for us, it's a deep sense of care and love. Many of my friends who are, you know, even adults, to some degree would kiss their parents, their fathers on the mouth, because it's not a sexualized thing for us. So that's the cultural context that we come from. And also, in addition to that, I'm sure there are articles that are already out there. But the relationship that we have with not just our parents, but grandparents is such that when we go ask for candy, or a sucker or a lollipop, you know, they would give you but they would give you a lot of things, a lot of love. There was a barter that happens. It's like, okay, well then give me this a kiss, give me a kiss here, right. And then it's like, okay, eat my tongue or suck my tongue. But that doesn't actually happen. It's like, oh, and then you can run away, right? Just like hug your grandparents or like, Give me a hug. And you don't want to give any, like, you fell for it. So it's playful. But I would refrain from using the word just playful, because that has also been used as a way to normalize sexual abuse. And so it is a barter of love, which is ultimately a display of affection, care, and deep love.
And folks who have actually taken the time to watch the full video, you'll actually see this and some of the versions of full video is actually not the full video because it's a long session. And you'll see that the kid actually comes to his holiness and provide some gifts. And then has this whole conversation with His Holiness, great, His Holiness. I remember when I was child, I used to play with my brother. Because my head was so strong, you know, we used to like, on our heads, and he has this interaction with the child. And after that, the kid comes up and says, Can I have a hug? It's like, okay, we've already spoken. There's like tons of people here. We've already had this interaction, we already like, you know, embrace each other. And you're, you're asking for another show. Come on up. Now, give me a kiss. Now, give me a kiss here. Okay, now stuck my tongue. Okay. And this is all within the cultural context. And right after that what happens is holiness holds his hand, the kids handle on his cheek, and says a prayer. You know, this interaction, and it continues with forehead touching, and forehead touching, meaning, my good luck, we haven't been saying that our luck is on our forehead. So spokes with a bigger forehead, I always joke back and say, No, it's not a fivehead. But I'd rather I have much more luck than you do. And so that luck is being passed on to you may all my good luck go on to you. And that type of meaningful interaction is happening here, which folks have completely misconstrued for us to use when you watch that, you know, how many people have said, I wish that was me. This is something that we've never had access to, to be able to come back close to his holiness and even have that type of interactions. People would die for that. And not to mention, let me give you a cultural context inside of Tibet. For decades, the picture of His Holiness the Dalai Lama has been illegal. You can look up the Dalai Lama online. If you look it up, your IP address would be tracked and you would be jailed. Now because of this incident, it has become allowed to be able to look up His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, of course, only to be able to find those edited clips and videos. But guess what Tibetans inside of Tibet are reacting as they're rejoicing. There's videos that are saw where elders are crying and saying I was able to see you.
There not interpreting this video as wherever the world is perceived it. And so if this doesn't prove to you the cultural divide in the context, when the whole, maybe there was uncomfort. And if you still want to center the voices of the ones that are affected, which is the boy in this case, let us do that. Have you watched the clip of the Child speaking, the child himself says it was the blessing. And his mother, after that says, you know, talks about her organization that they funded, but also talks about how grateful she is and how blessed she feels that her family got this blessing and interaction. Not to mention, even after when the whole world cited to outburst, the family still wrote to his holiness with two things, one, that their faith and respect for his holiness remains intact, and to apologizing. Now, if the world the Western world, or the folks that are so called saviors of this child, you know, really care about this child. Now, what what have we done? And this is the question about intention and impact. Right? The intent, nobody has bad intentions here, whether it is the viewers, the non supporters, the supporters, this one is the Dalai Lama the child. But in terms of impact the child there was no impact from that event that was negative for the child, even for a month, until the viewers who saw it who had were uncomfortable because of their own world that they bring in, had projected this victimization, this trauma onto the challenge, and no, no, no, we're going to define for you what is trauma, because what you thought was a blessing, it's actually not a blessing. You're enabling such abuse, and bringing it back onto the child. So this projection, so who are we to in the name of protecting the child, traumatizing him with an event that was initially blessing for him and his family and renaming it for him as traumatizing?
If this doesn't remind you, or make you reflect on your ethnocentrism, your superiority complex in any way, or challenge your inner whiteness? I don't know what when. At this point, Tibetans, in terms of impact have been gravely impacted. Why because, as I said, from the beginning, the impact or the the values, that His Holiness is inviting us, the meaning of His Holiness for us in our lives, is something that nobody will ever be able to understand. And you have questioned us, not just questioned his holiness, His name, but you have questions our very existence, we have lived our lives, you know, ushering ends outside of the classroom, because we didn't want anybody to step on it. As spider comes, we would risk our own hands and say, no, no, no, I'm going to take the spider out. This is the culture that we grew up in. And if you question someone who's like his holiness, who's taught us those values, then you're questioning our whole existence. I saw some comments on the Toronto protests that we recently did, or a peace rally that we did. Or somebody said, there's inflation happening, this is when you want to be doing talking about this. I said, Yeah. Because yes, inflation also affects us. Child abuse also affects us. But we know what also affects us. When you challenge our mere existence, our very existence as being into question here and not just challenge you're judging us. With what your own perspective of your space, sexualized view, we don't, the concept of celibacy. I don't think the Western content people have understood still to this day, in monks. Back in Tibet, we used to have one member of our family who entered the Monastry. And they would be celibate for their whole lives. We're not driven by thoughts that are sexual all the time, are driven by how to reach our higher consciousness. We're taught how to listen, conditions, speak and listen, condition our minds and meditate, to be able to reach our higher consciousness. And that's something that His Holiness has been dedicating his life to for decades. And if you think he's driven by plays, Blaine, last, and you have not understood him still to this day, and that's a disadvantage for the world's rather than him because he's not affected by any of this. The only people that you've heard to deeply is the Tibetans, the followers of his own on in this and actually you've done just harm you've, you've done harm to yourself, if you think that you really care for the child, because you haven't. You haven't That's my perspective, though, you're free to think whatever you'd like you really still, you know, want to go ahead and condemn and talk about the violence, then I really encourage you to talk about the violence that has caused that your views because to the larger world.
Anjali Rao 20:19
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. I also think, you know, it's interesting that this viral clip that is actually an sort of a simple way of reacting to something which is different from our culture. As a non Tibetan. What is interesting is that there is no outrage on the 1000s of Tibetan children who are forcibly taken to residential schools. Where's the outrage for that? Why is there no focus from the media at all, or no conversation at all? About that? So I would like you, Chemi, to please shine a light on this issue right now.
Chemi Lhamo 21:05
Yeah. You know, for decades. Let me center myself in terms of my location, I live right now in Toronto. I come from stolen land, and I live on stolen land. And so for me, being able to understand my existence on this land has been always a challenge of how do I build solidarity and camaraderie and these meaningful, intentional relationships with the indigenous communities here, because this is their land, that they have stewarded for millions and eons of years. And we've come onto their lands, and basically, our settlers. And so how do we navigate that? What is our responsibility in that role? And for me, it said, most of our peoples that we didn't come here by choice, our country was taken away from us, we come from stolen land. And so the struggle and the challenges that our people have had to face for three generations living in exile is something that folks wouldn't understand because we needed for me I was born as a stateless refugee in India, I didn't have a piece of paper that's here, you belong to this country. And so even leaving India was a struggle to be able to get the visa, you need a passport, but we don't have passports. That's the Tibetans in exile. Tibetans inside of Tibet, in their own country, cannot even have a flag can even see their picture of their or their teacher, their son. And forget a passport. If you get a passport, you have to get a Chinese passport. And even if you do get one for maybe like a study visa to be able to go to Harvard or whatever school prestigious school that you're able to get it, the moment you come back, your your passport is confiscated. That's like 1% or less than 1% of dependents that are able to go out.
So depends inside of Tibet cannot leave Tibetans outside cannot go back to their own country. And for decades, we've been talking to the world, telling them to listen about the struggle and the plight of, of our country of our nation. Tibet has been ranked the least free place on earth for about five years in a row by Freedom House. And this year, it's tied with Syria and South Sudan that's even higher than North Korea in terms of how free our country is. And we've been talking about this to the world for decades, asking them to listen to the type of tension that this couple of seconds clip, edited clip has received, something that we have not been able to do for decades, despite how many hours countless hours of work we've been doing in our movement. So this is the reason that we're getting back on the map only so you can judge us, that's fine. But if even if that's the case, let us turn around the narrative and pay attention to what's actually happening inside of Tibet. As you said, there are actually almost a million children. That's 80%. of Tibetan children. That means 80% of our next generation, are forced or coerced. They're being children are being separated from their families where they have to attend these state one colonial boarding schools five days a week, separated from their families where they're being taught how to read, write, speak in Chinese Mandarin, rather than Tibetan. There's also psychological tricks that they're playing on these children, where they're almost bribing them, giving them cake giving them sweets and sugars in between classes, so that they wouldn't want to go back home. Kids as young as four years old. If this insidious, vicious type of brainwashing that the Chinese government is doing does not bother you. And I questioned whether or not you truly care for children in mind you in these schools, we have no idea what type of violence these children are going through in the case that they resist. families that have resisted having their children that are four and five years old, that are being forced into preschool. They're being denied of social welfare. They're getting bullied. If they speak out, they'll get detained. And try to spread this news outside. No doubt, they'll go to disappear. And the other thing is, if you don't send them to these mandatory preschools, they don't get an education. Now tell me in this world, where do you go, if you don't have an education, the only people that were able to get some sort of visa to be able to come outside, and xr is through an education.
And now that's exactly what the Chinese government is doing, trying to eradicate the whole Tibetan identity at its core. And this is something that we all know living in Turtle Island. This is the same tactic that the colonizers use on indigenous First Nations, matey and Inuit kids here. And we say, No, that's terrible, as we, as we find out more news about the unmarked graves of children that were buried near these churches. Do we want to find these graves of children inside of Tibet in the next future? If we don't say something about it, it will happen. And we've been raising alarm, talking to any media that you can imagine about the situation 80% of our next generation, you know, the Chinese government has realized that they cannot eradicate the Tibetan identity. The very reason that you see all these Tibetan activists, Tibetans, everywhere rising, telling you to please listen to the other narrative. That spirit is something that the Chinese government has been trying to erase for 70 years, and they haven't been able to, and they realize that, so what are they doing, they're waiting for our generations to die. So that the new generation that they've brainwashed come into picture. This is not just a cultural genocide that we're talking about this is an elimination is a project that the Chinese government is deployed. It's a colonial you know, strategy to eradicate indigenous populations, native populations. cultural, intellectual, spiritual legacy, we see this, we've seen this as an Indian, I've seen this.
Anjali Rao 27:29
So I, as you know, I totally can understand, and thank you for sharing that. I'm just so moved.
Jivana Heyman 27:38
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Anjali Rao 28:37
I was I invited you here to me not only because I really respect you as, as an activist and as a spokesperson. And I met you personally. So I have that personal connection. But I also wanted to like just center Tibetan perspective perspectives based on some of the interactions that I have now experienced because of this issue in my direct messages and social media whenever I posted and just the gratitude of just being seen, and vulnerability that people have shared with me, will will stay with me. You know, it's going to be a part of my work. How can we be in solidarity with with the Tibetan people right now in as non Tibetans? What can we do?
Chemi Lhamo 29:31
We know, this may make me reflect on the word ally ship. Ally is not just a bag that you wear. It's a constant action that you engage in. And so if you'd like to be an ally, to us, it is first and foremost, understanding the situation and truly like reflecting on whether or not you see our perspective, and not just our perspective in a line As with you, do you see the truth in the form of interaction that the boy is honest has had? And have you read about the Tibetan movement, what they have been calling for, for decades, what is the situation inside of Tibet. And so, you know, once you've done that internal work, I think, no matter what type of feedback you get, when you're externally out there and saying, I stand with the Dalai Lama, we stand with the Dalai Lama and show your solidarity, that nothing will affect you to some degree where you will have to change your mind, there will be conviction in your values in your thoughts, there's the alignment, that ally ship that you're able to provide us will also be of that string. And don't worry, once you have shown your solidarity and support your one of us, our community will be there to embrace you. And as you've said, already, that the community is already reaching out to you in terms of gratitude of being seen, we've been so denied of the public, the media, the platform, the attention, that we've been asking for support for decades, we're finally getting it in such a negative tone. But we still believe there's hope, just like the Tibetans inside of Tibet that are grateful to be able to see a picture of His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, even though it's edited, and so, you know, disproportionately negatively displayed, they are still finding the gratitude and joy and being able to see their glory. And so if they can do that, despite the oppression, despite the genocide that they're going through, for us in exile, to be able to speak out, takes couple of seconds, to show out a post on social media to say that you stand with us all the news, kind of takes maybe minutes or hours, or, you know, just a conversation with somebody to explain this other perspective and your own reflection. And you don't need to just repeat what we've been saying, you have to just do that internal reflection on your perspective, and bring in your complexities and your nuances of who you are. You know, for me, I can't bring that expression of playing with my grandparents of being able to do that, you know, affectionate barder, because they passed away at the ages of 16. I have only one grandparent left who lives in India, and I haven't seen her for 10 years now.
And I've been denied that experience because of displacement. And so my stories and my cultural stories have not been preserved because of the colonial regime because of the displacement. And that's why we struggled for I struggled for the first three days to be able to give the world an explanation that was academically succinct, you know, people finding all these flaws in our reasoning. I'm like, Yeah, because our cultural practices have not been written down. They've not been written down because people do not care when we were being literally killed, and annihilated as a nation. And so we're as we're preserving our culture and trying our very best to not get assimilated into various diasporic communities, this attack has happened. And now we're being asked to bring, you know, cultural references and academic articles that prove our cultural practices. But why why do we need to defend ourselves that way? This is our truth. This is who we are. And if you care, and if you choose to care, then you have to learn about it. And if not bringing your own cultural experience of bringing on new ones. We need this complexities and nuances, the multiplicities of stories, we don't need the single narratives. This is exactly what we want to challenge the single narrative of this hyper sexualized context that had been created the story sensationalized story that has been created in the West, that is finally put it back on the map. So let us turn around the narrative there is hope. We have been, I've been, you know, recently seeing some videos of the so called influences that have initially posted all these negative terms of His Holiness stating his name and apologizing to others, apologizing to His Holiness apologizing to the Tibetan people, and supporters. And, you know, this is something that people can just say, I'm sorry, I misunderstood and walk away. The pain that it has caused millions of people is not something that we can walk away. We've lost tons of sleep. Some of our seniors and elders who have not been able to go home for six decades, they still crying at home every day praying for his well being and saying that this is probably one of the worst moments in their lives, despite losing a country having to start over and over again, not once, not twice, but three times in different countries, learning different languages I to this day, speak four different languages and perhaps even seven on my resume. No, but that is a blessing and a curse. Because it's a reminder of how many times my parents had to just pack up and start again, again and again from zero. All of their well, cultural, and family, family relationships had to be left, just so that they can have a chance of survival. And that type of struggle that might our grandparents generation have gone through our parents generation, they are crying at night saying that this defamation, this cultural misunderstanding, this situation on this understanding of the West, has caused them this much pain that they can't sleep at night.
So in terms of impact, you know, this is not something that the Tibetan community can just get over. And so thank you, for the apologies for those who have, and folks who do wish to reflect, please, we need your support at this crucial time. There's so many people on the media that still have been circulating all of this misinformation. I've heard of young Tibetans here in the West having to go through classes where these teachers are bringing this example and saying, This is a form of sexual abuse, to children. And now imagine being a young Tibet and not having the words to be able to explain, being bullied in class being called pedo supporter. It's just ridiculous the amount of pain that our community is going through at every single level. And I can't continue to express. You know, despite all of this pain, we were still here trying to practice the teachings of His Holiness and being compassionate, trying to not be violent in any way. You have not seen any sort of rioting, if you challenge any. We have not harmed anyone, physically, emotionally to
Anjali Rao 36:49
Yeah, that's that's exactly what I wanted to share next. So I'm so glad you're bringing this up to me, because even just being well witnessed to and the recipient of messages from Tibetan folks from all over the world, sharing with me so much vulnerability, I have never received a single message of anger, or resentment, or bitter, even bitterness, all people have shared with me is either the gratitude, the vulnerability, their even compassion, and they've shared the hurt that they felt, but I've not really heard an angry message. And I, and I'm sitting with that, because I feel angry on behalf of Tibetans and people who have been marginalized. And I feel that that is special, that is unique, that that the way to receive all this negative, you know, negative harmful coverage that the Tibetan community is facing right now. And people are still rooting down or anchoring down with in their humanity. The Tibetans, and I think that is a that is something that we non Tibetans should learn about how we can just understand the complexity of a situation, learn how to share vulnerability, because that is not often shared in this very patriarchal way of being in the world, you know, politics and world issues and all of this race. It's, it's shared in a in a very patriarchal way, I feel that this is a non patriarchal way of being moving in the world. And I think that is a lesson that we can take as non Tibetans from this, just receiving and being a witness to what's happening.
Chemi Lhamo 38:55
And I'm very grateful for that. And I'm very grateful for you to sharing your eloquence, your heart, your experiences, I know it brings up a lot. And as a friend, and as somebody who I look to as I'm older.
Anjali Rao 39:15
I hope you take care of yourself. I hope you are learning how to anchor yourself in this process, and is there anything else you want to share in terms of what you do and how we can further support you?
Chemi Lhamo 39:36
Thank you, I am able to do what I do because of my community. And so if there's any ounce of you know, in a good impression that you have me, just know that that is because of my community. And if you want to support me, support my community is support the very people that have been called into question. And they're not just the people, our values, their very existence has been called into question here. And it's so crucial that we have the support of Don Tibetans be a testament to who we are, especially if you see it. No, we don't need lip service, we need your true reflections and support. And that will be seen. And that will also help us in a longer way, longer term of when there will be turns and tribulations and trials. And during that time, it will be easier to go through because we know that we're holding hands together. And so don't worry about me, I'm okay. I'm very grateful that people are willing to listen, if you've made it this way. Until here in the podcast, I appreciate your time and the will to unlearn and learn and grow together. And I hope that we will continue on this journey together for everybody and let us not use our rationalization or this so called to care for folks come in the way of the oneness of humanity because we are ultimately one and so we must be one and together.
Anjali Rao 41:19
Chemi Lhamo 41:20
Thank you for having me.
Anjali Rao 41:22
Thank you so much to be so appreciate you.
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