Jivana Heyman 0:00
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Anjali Rao 0:31
Welcome to the love of yoga podcast. I'm your host Anjali Rao. This podcast explores the connections between the teachings of yoga for self and collective transformation. We dive into how spirituality and philosophy can ignite social change. I share conversations with folks who are on the frontlines of justice and laboratory movements, thought leaders and changemakers disruptors and healers.
Welcome to the love of yoga podcast. I'm your host Anjali Tao. The teachings of yoga and the sibling signs out VEDA explore the ways in which the body the mind and the spirit are interconnected, and a continuum, not separate from each other. In the modern world, many don't have access to the expansiveness of the teachings of both Yoga and Ayurveda. This podcast aims to share the wisdom of the art and science of yoga. In ways we also honor the teachers and the many routes not as a lifestyle, but as a way of life. Much has been written and discussed about self care, a concept that was popularized by the Black Panther Party and queer black activists in the 50s and 60s. Self care now is seen as self indulgent, selfish, expensive, confusing, superficial. Today we will parse some of these misconceptions about self care. What is self care? What does yoga teach us about self care? Joining us in this conversation is into Aurora, Yoga and Ayurveda teacher, mentor, author, and someone who considers herself a student for lifetime. I love that so much in the she has been sharing about yoga philosophy, yoga therapy and Aveda since 1999, she is inspired by and taught under kriya, yoga, Himalayan yoga and Kashmir Shaivism lineages, one of my favorite yoga teachers into Aurora. Welcome to the podcast into I'm so happy to have you here.
Indu Arora 3:07
Thank you so much for having me, Anjali. And right at the beginning, I should say that I love the theme of this podcast, the love of yoga, what it just makes my heart so happy. And I'm honored to be a part of this. Thank you for having me. Great.
Anjali Rao 3:26
So let's dive straight into the conversation topic into I know that you have taught yoga, and Ayurveda both in so many different ways. And I know that this topic is particularly close to your heart, and the ways in which you talk about this and discuss and explore this is just so very special. And I really wanted the listeners to have your experience and knowledge when it comes to self care. But before we begin, I just want to share a little bit about your own story in your words. Because I also want to know more about you. Can you please share about the beginning of your journey into Yoga and Ayurveda?
Indu Arora 4:09
First, I would say that, you know, you introduced me my saying thought I teach I think I would say and that I simply share teaching is I feel that it creates a certain kind of hierarchy where it feels as if I know more or I know better. I just want to say that I'm learning and I'm simply sharing along the way with the hope that it benefits many and also that it leaves a scope for me to keep learning for error as a human being. But coming back to the story, there are three stages or levels of this story Anjali one is growing up in a joint family in India. I was exposed to this you know this passive learning that happens when you see at least in in my gel form joint family I do Want to generalize it as if it happens in every Indian joint family, in my joint family, my father, so my father practicing asanas and pranayama, every day, I used to as a child of six years, I used to walk, wake up at four o'clock and go with my grandmother, pick some jasmine flowers along the way and go to this temple to offer this, these flowers all in the greed of getting five PESA so that I can buy this orange candies, which I think most of my fellow Indian might connect to this fish shaped orange candies or orange slice shaped orange candies that you could buy with five PESA. So it was greed based learning that the the devotion was rooted in greed at the age of six. And it was a complete amazement and wonder when I used to see my father upside down practicing shusun. And as a little girl, I was I was just giggling and smiling and looking from the corner of the door, that why is he seeing the world upside down when he could actually just see it. You know, what be on the on his feet. And my mother, you know, her day would begin by reading some texts. And every evening there was family coming together for our tea and prayers. So that was introduction of yoga. But it was on passive learning, I wouldn't say that. I was really aware at the time that I wanted to study this. But it was an impression anyways, as life progressed, it was at the age of 16, when there was some level of formal introduction to yoga, when I met my first teacher who initiated me and the practice of mudras hand mudras. So that was the formal step at the age of 16. But really, I think I can say that I dedicated myself to the study of it, from the age of 20, when I actually met my teacher, and it was, it is really a blessing that I got to stay with her, we can call it to Gurukula system where she was not a part of the ashram. But somehow, the conspiracy of the time and the universe was such that I was the first student she said yes to that come and stay with me. And so I got to stay with her and learn from her. By observing how she lived her life, not just how she taught the classes. And the beginning of the journey, and present in my life, really is everyday. Everyday, it's a renewed sense of commitment to the path every day, I wake up, and it is the same sankalpa that may I be able to repay this debt of wisdom, that may I do justice with the teachings and the teachers that I have my life has crossed paths with may not go waste. So it's a big thing every day.
Anjali Rao 8:00
Beautifully said, we begin every day and our learning is always ongoing. And I really so appreciate that you shared it that way. That first and foremost, and always we are students and practitioners and and then the teaching is more like a sharing and I always have very strong strongly asserted that for myself. So I completely understand that. And do you think that's also a part of our culture, that kind of appreciation for teachers for teaching for learning, that sort of respect that we give? Is that do you think that's cultural?
Indu Arora 8:38
I think I think I can say that there is a humbleness around learning. And there is a certain humbleness and gratitude towards someone who may or may not formally be your teacher. But if someone teaches you something, or someone said something, and it affects your life in a way that it's transformative, there is a certain gratitude around it. But with that, also, I think it's very important to have discernment about who is the leader who are we learning from because it's such a now because I'm in Minneapolis, I would say if such as icy road. It's a slippery slope. We have to be careful. Yes, we call our teachers Yes,
Anjali Rao 9:23
I completely agree. And to go to our topic, you know, when we talk to talk about discernment and self care, since that is our topic, what how would you practice discernment when we are practicing self care one, and how would you define self care?
Indu Arora 9:41
Those are really good questions and to the discernment around self care. That is so important because self care can be easily misunderstood. Especially I would say in the last few years, it has become a trend It has become a hashtag, it has become the name of so many products, that it can be misunderstood as something which comes with a price. So, therefore it can become inaccessible, therefore it can become privileged. Therefore it can become a something which is only for few and not for everyone, my limited understanding of self care comes in comes with the idea that self care is the most tangible step that we can take as a Ahimsa as non violence, because I feel that when we are not in touch with our self, and here I'm not talking about taking care of your skin or hair, although I don't want to underestimate that either. It's important to take care of the body also. But here, this kind of sulfur that I'm emphasizing and underlining is the kind of care that if we miss it, we are not kind, if we miss it, we cannot be compassionate. And if our vessels of mind and heart are not filled up, we cannot keep giving from empty, empty vessels. So it's this self care is a Ahimsa non violence, because it is rooted in listening to the body. It is rooted in listening to, you know, there is this concept of interoception you know, where you really are in touch with, are you hungry, or you're thirsty, and those are very visceral, everyday experiences and feelings. But I feel we have even lost touch with that. Because we eat when we are thirsty misunderstanding that, and we eat things that just fills up the chatter of our mind instead of really bringing nourishment and satiation. So therefore it leads to be good. We misunderstand snacking as eating. And that is, when we misunderstand self care that oh, I'm going to have, I'm just giving an example. I hope it's taken in the right spirit that oh, I'm going to have pizza today, because I don't want to cook today, because I'm tired. So this is self care. No, eventually it is not self care. Of course, we can cheat and we sometimes cheat with what we want to eat and what we want to drink and what we want to do. But when the label that are mislabeled, that is self care, that is when we do this service to the term itself. Self Care is responsibility. It is a Swadharma It is an act of Therma. It is an act of care. Because when we pay attention to a very simple example that I'm watching something, which is a series on some streaming platform, and my eyes are droopy, and my shoulders are droopy, and I start yawning, but I don't choose to listen to it, I just let that that it go for few more seconds where the next episode begins. And I listen to my body and then therefore I wake up groggy, I wake up, not clear minded. So it starts a cycle of staying out of touch with yourself. And when we are out of touch with ourselves, we become more reactive, and responsive. And as we become reactive, that is when we lose discernment. So it all comes back, it may seem like so far fetched connection. But in my mind, it's a very clear connection, when we stop paying attention to these small everyday signals that we get from our body, from our thoughts from our emotions, and we just tend to push it away or not pay attention to it. That is when it all gets clouded.
Anjali Rao 13:50
Or we put like quick band aids on those signals, right, like a quick immediately gratification of those signals that our body is sending. Are we really doing something eating something watching something just to to suppress an emotion, just having those sorts of introspect introspective practices is really, really, I think, important, but it's also not very accessible to many. Introspection itself is I think, something that has to be practiced. It doesn't come very easily, especially in the modern world. How would we, for beginners, how would we begin to practice those sorts of introspective practices so we know what to practice in terms of self care,
Indu Arora 14:38
the emphasis of listening, when we allow the pause to listen, I remember Anjali I was 21. And at that time back in India, I used to lead these yoga classes that Get Started that used to begin at 530 in the morning and living it, it's common in India to live with your parents. So I was living with my parents, my bedroom was completely converted into a yoga room. For six years I was sitting, sleeping on the floor on just a thin yoga mat because I pushed everything out just for it to be a yoga room. But that's not the point. The point was my father used to wake up at four o'clock in the morning. And there was this wooden platform that was outside, in an in the veranda, under the stars or in the open sky. And used to lay down in this reclining booth tacos. And I was awake because I'm preparing the room cleaning, blooming, wiping the rooms to prepare for the yoga classes. And I used to every day wonder what is he doing? And why he has to create this point, take body language and lay down and reclining Buddha. And one day I just could not hold myself back and I went and sat by his side. And I just put my hand on his shoulder and I said Papa, which is a word that I use for Father, what are you doing here? Why don't you go inside and sleep why all this facade that you know this gesture and and I cannot forget how gently he opened up his eyes and he had this half smile on his face and he said that beta which means child. I'm not sleeping, I'm reflecting I'm doing this practice of Milan this contemplation assessing my life and such an important time because there are no distractions. And he said this one thing that there is if you if you do this kind of chintan which means contemplation self inquiry on an everyday basis, it increases the gap between cinta and cheetah cinta means worry and cheetah means course, that this kind of contemplation if you if you take it out of equation from your everyday life, it only leads to worrying and only make brings you closer to this kind of physical mental emotional exhaustion, burnout, and therefore, you know, aging. It was a lesson that I think I took very, very, very seriously. And this is what I would suggest that those few moments when we wake up and before we go to bed, that is a time to practice. And if we don't know any practices if we don't know any mantras if we don't know any mudras just listen to your breath because it speaks in its shakiness in its voice. And its hiccups. It speaks it is telling us something. It's pointing us either something towards visceral pain, physical pain, or mental pain, or emotional pain. Those breaks in the breath are for nothing they are telling a story. Listen, listen carefully, because from there, you can pick up where are the gaps? Where are the hiccups?
Anjali Rao 17:58
Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Very, very helpful. recommendations on practicing the pause every day and including a moment of pause, especially in the beginning of the day and the end of the day. How do you practice self care? What are some of your absolutely non negotiable practices.
Indu Arora 18:23
This one that I shared with you this is later on, I learned that it is a practice it's a Vedic practice called atma the 12 a locum where AntMan means the soul or the self that one means the substance of or the badness, the soul nests of the soul and other local means looking into the mirror of so it basically means looking into the mirror of your soul. Basically, check in instead of just check out. So this is an absolute non negotiable for me. What are some of the other ways in which I practice self care? What is very important for me is paying attention to sleep signals. Taking a nap in the daytime, if the time if the day if the situation allows. But in my mind, it's a priority. That prioritization has to be there before you try to carve out a space for it. Before you create and make that accessible for yourself there has to be prioritization in the mind. So for Pete that is an absolute priority. How are you doing with your sleep? Is there sleep hunger is there sleep deprivation or sleep debt in your system, and if there is we know it, that it comes up as irritability, it comes up as this kind of dullness of the mind, it comes up as reactivity. So that is absolute non negotiable. The other non negotiable for me, and I try to do it to the best of my capacity is observing the rhythms of nature, whether it is from Full Moon to new moon, whether it is the seasons, the seasonal shift, See the types of the day just trying to see whether it is my yoga practice? How can it be better suited to the time of the day, whether it is a food that I'm going to eat, to bring in the Ayurvedic wisdom and see that is it a good combination for this time of the day, is it a good food to eat at this time of the year is it going to create some kind of reaction or some kind of resistance in my body, for which the body has to then pull out more energy to digest it. So paying attention to the weather, it is the diurnal care, the 24 hour cycle, sun and moon, or the 15 day cycle of the moon or the seasonal care, this is my next thing, which I really really pay attention to. And the third thing that I pay attention to is what do I do in the first one hour of waking up and in the last 30 minutes of going to bed. Those two N did this the beauty of it is Anjali, this is a part of our texts and scriptures. In Ayurveda, it begins with that most of the Ayurvedic texts begins with preventative care, not curative care, preventative care. And in preventative care it, it lays out the importance of three kinds of care, the wakeup care, the going to bed care and the seasonal care, because these are transition timings, it is this transition timings where the body, the mind, the breath, everything, everything is at stake, because when you go through a transition, if it is not smooth, that is when we create what is called be cruelty, that is imbalance or that is the time and the breath is mental emotional fluctuations come in. But if we can ease out these two timings, the starting of the day, the ending of the day, and the shifts in the seasons, that really is very, very, very helpful.
Anjali Rao 22:01
Thank you, thank you so much. And for the listeners who want to know more about your work, because you explore and delve really deeply into some of these concepts that you just mentioned in terms of sleep in terms of nourishment. I will share your the books that you've written on some of these subjects as well as some of the courses that you will be sharing. So I will I will just say that for the listeners as well. And I will want to go back into to what you shared about self care as Swadharma Can you just explain a little bit more to the listeners about how self care is Swadharma? And maybe for those folks who don't know what Swadharma is? How would you define that
Indu Arora 22:50
the term Dharma is so many terms that are in Sanskrit, when there are their mirror translated, so much of the meaning is lost, that my is one that one of that word, it became almost symbolic of profession, that Oh, are you You know, I want to find my Therma I am not living my term or I'm not doing this I have to find what is my dharma code. The thing is Swadharma flow means self and individuals Dharma is every moment when you do a karma, an action, whether it is by thought by speech, or through your body, when it serves not just the individual, but it serves whether it is family, whether it is community, whether it is society, whether it is the world, that is Swadharma it is not rooted in selfishness, it is not something that only when you teach yoga, it will be karmic. Only when you teach or your reader it will be karmic no dharma is in every is accessible to everyone, as long as we are mindful of knowing that whatever we are saying or doing and thinking has an impact. And it that impact ripples out and affects everyone else. So staying in that center, staying centered with your breath, and consciously putting efforts to have discernment, consciously putting efforts to keep emotional equilibrium, continuously putting effort to have a clear, calm, composed mind and all of that take effort. None of that is easy. All of it is tapasya. All of it is hard work. All of it will require your time but it will not go waste. All of that work that you will put in two words the clarity of your mind towards the equilibrium of your emotions towards the smoothness of your breath. It will pay off because it is going to affect not just you it's going to affect every one and everything else. That is what Irma, and that's what Herma is so important. I think there should be there has to be, there must be there should be so much clarity around the word thermal, because when it is misinterpreted, it gets zeroed in just something that you're doing in your life or one thing that you're doing in your life, not everything. But it is actually everything else that matters. Not just that one thing that you are doing.
Anjali Rao 25:31
Wonderfully said, Thank you so much for sharing that I I think there's so much there for the listeners and for me to reflect on. So appreciate that so much.
Jivana Heyman 25:44
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Anjali Rao 26:45
What are some of the ways in which we can practice self care in our everyday pretty complicated, busy lives? And you often talk about how practices like mudra mantra, especially are very accessible, they are not very once you know how to practice them, and you're learning from a good teacher who has the, you know, the wisdom to share these these kinds of practices, you always talk about how accessible they are. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What is a mudra? Let's let's start with that and how could that be a part of yourself get?
Indu Arora 27:25
Yes, these practices these are called subtle practices or suction careers in yoga, whether it is mantra mudra pranayam, even practices like meditation, relaxation, showers and all these are subtly practices. What has happened is that and I will talk about the question what is mudra that yoga, when someone practices asanas, we say that I practice yoga. If we if we start saying it in a truthful way that I practice is Asana, yoga for I practices, asanas in yoga, or I practice it asanas, I think it will not lead to this misunderstanding over a period of time. By thinking that asanas is equal to yoga, asanas is just a part of yoga. And because asanas have become so zoomed in as if they are the primary focus of yoga, yoga becomes inaccessible, because not everyone can put their bodies into those shapes and forms because when we see those photographs or pictures or anywhere we see those those images which show someone practicing either an inversion or a balancing posture or something that requires some extreme level of flexibility or strength, we get this doubt that Oh, I cannot practice it. So now I cannot practice yoga. So I could not practice yoga, which was one of the systems of self care original systems of self care Yoga and Ayurveda. Where the self when I'm saying self care, I don't want to say just related to body self as the breath self as in your mind, and self also as himself with the capital S getting in touch with yourself. So asanas when we saw those see those images, we have to also keep in mind that those Yogi's and yoginis were not living those everyday lives, their diets, their lifestyles, their everyday lives were very different at that time than what we have now. So it becomes there is a distance then it creates a distance between myself and yoga because now yoga is equal to Asana and I cannot do this asana so I cannot do yoga, so I cannot take care of myself. It's so important to bring some level of awareness and truthfulness in same things as it is what did you actually practice that you call yoga? I think that needs that needs to be this further inquiry. What is it that you practice that you are calling yoga, and that will bring a really a clear communication. But coming back to mudra mantra, those are, I consider them as really, really accessible because you don't have to unfold your mat for doing practices. You can practice them sitting on chair taking a walk, you can practice them. I remember my grandmother used to watch something when we had television, and she's also doing her mantra japa Yeah, you know, so those things, those things were not in isolation. Those things were practice as integrated as a part of the life I remember my father after having lunch used to sit in budget rosin, this tender would post it was not practiced like set aside in mind that when I will practice is 30 minutes of one hour of yoga, and I will unfold my mat, then I will do Varasano, it was a part of life, it was a part of everyday life, that I feel this is what mudras and mantras and pranayama they bring this accessibility, they bring this flexibility, because then you are in first of all, creating a deeper connection with yourself and integrating the practices in your everyday life and not making it a one hour or 30 minute thing where you need a yoga mat, then it again becomes unapproachable, because then what kind of yoga mat do you need, then you need space for yoga mat and maybe not everyone's houses setup where they can have a special room for yoga and a special mat for yoga. Let me tell you this, I bought my first yoga mat. In the first one month of being in United States, I never had a yoga mat to start with, I just had a square piece of us and it is a square piece of cloth, which is actually called us in a meditation seat. That was my yoga space. You know, we create all these external things and the same external things which makes sometimes things approachable tangible, they also at the same time make them inaccessible, but for the practice of mudra mudra which is in simple words, ie these are gestures. And these are gestures of the body. And they could be gestures of the hand gestures of the eye is gestures of the neck of the feet. The most common ones are hand gestures, and these hand gestures are nonverbal ways of communication. And when you meet someone and you say them hello by waving your hand that is a mudra when you join both your hands together if you do so for saying namaste that verbal saying of namaste is not even needed. You simply joining the hands together that itself is Namaste. Or you simply nodding your head and closing your eyes and keeping your hand on the heart that is also Namaste. So there are we forget that the purpose of these external gestures is to communicate a sentiment. These are these are just external props that are also creating this kind of a fuller language to communicate clearly. But the beauty of Mudra is there are so many hand mantras that can be practiced for everyday care. For example, if you have if you're experiencing flatulence, if you're experiencing bloating, you can simply fold your index finger at the root of the thumb and press it down with the tongue keeping the other three fingers straight. And that reduces the vata the air element in the body and helps in really relieving that discomfort that is every day mudra. Or if you're feeling that your energy levels are tipping, you simply join the ring finger pad with the little thing and the little finger pad with the thumb pad, keeping the index and the middle finger stretched out in right hand or left hand or both hands. That is called prana mudra. That is to balance out or provide consistent energy levels. Or if you're having difficulty in falling asleep. Even while laying down. You know how infants sleep they make a soft fist with the comeback standard between the index finger and the thumb. infant sleep like this naturally. And this is actually called Serena mudra su means good or pleasant. And Rena means night, good night mudra and this is inspired from the babies. So if you simply hold your hands like this, keeping them on the belly by the side, wherever it is comfortable in lying down position or reclined position. That is mudra for self care for digestion, for sleep for energy levels, right there. Mudra is this wisdom is at your service to make your life easier, simpler, balanced, so that so that we think clearly so that we are contributing members of the society, not just so that I am healthy and That kind of self care is self absorbed care. And self absorbed care is selfish care. That is not the kind of care I'm talking about, which stops at yourself, what are we going to do with that health? That is important, you have now put it into action. That that that is so important to understand the think that, Oh, I'm going to buy this. And now I'm going to make juices or smoothies or I'm going to buy this supplement, or I'm going to buy this yoga mat, or I'm going to buy the skincare product, or I'm going to eat vegan or vegetarian or paleo, it doesn't matter. Why are we doing? Why are we taking all these steps, we are going to such great lengths. And if we ask someone, why are you doing that? I want to be healthy. Okay. What do you want the health for? You don't think that? Why are you accumulating all these things? Do you have a plan? What do you are accumulating all this for. And if you don't have a plan, it is such a mindless Chase. Because that kind of health is only possible in theory where you think everything is perfect,
Anjali Rao 36:05
absolutely, wonderfully stated. And I'm so appreciative of all the all the mutrah that you shared, I'm really excited about those practices as well, I think the listeners will be you know, hopefully learning more from you. Because I know you have so much of such a wealth of information about these practices, and the ways in which you share them. And as a dancer, my the way I approached, withdraws are so different. And maybe someday I'm going to invite you back again. And then we can see the overlap between how you know, classical dance looked at mudra and how Yoga and Ayurveda looked at mudra. But I have a feeling that there's a common ancestor mudra in those probably in the Shastras. So, any before we leave in though, first of all, I am so appreciative of your generosity in sharing all these practices with me and the listeners. And I look forward to continue learning from you in so many different ways. And before you leave us any law, any other thoughts on what we talked about or anything else you want to share upcoming courses that you want to talk about.
Indu Arora 37:12
Do something every day. That is what counts. Don't vote, wait for a special day to arrive. Don't wait for a special time when you're going to unfold your mat. Find ways to integrate self care, understanding its importance, its importance lies in its impact. And it does not just impact you as an individual. When we are balanced. When we are in touch with ourselves. We are better for everyone else. If you are not doing it for yourself, do it for others. If you're not doing it for others, do it for yourself. Irrespective find a way to do it. And how about just do one thing, something to take care of your body every day. Whether it is consciously paying attention to what I'm eating and how am I feeling after that just paying attention to even that relationship. That is care for your body. Do something to take care of your mind every day. Pay attention to the thoughts to the emotions. Don't suppress them. Don't shove them. Don't repress them. Listen to them. Because one day all of this builds up. We don't have to wait for that day pay attention. And whenever you feel there is an unevenness in your thought. Whenever you feel there is an unevenness in your emotion, something that feels this uncomfortable, something that feels too much. That's something that is overwhelming. Bring your awareness to your breath. And do nothing simply you know how we iron things iron things to to release wrinkles. Iron your breath, make it as if you're ironing it smooth three is to three or four is to four that will help you release the wrinkles of those emotions that will help you release those knots of those parts that are creating the distance between you and your clear mind. Just iron your breath every day for a minute for two minutes. Whenever you find yourself being disturbed being unclear, give that to your mind and do something to your soul. Even if it is just putting your hand on your heart and connecting to yourself and asking yourself who am I just connect? Do something for your body for your mind for your soul? Every day, it doesn't take time. And let's not make an excuse to not have time My teacher used to say the time for your practice is when after you go to bed and before you wake up. And this sounds like a mystery right? But when we try to take out time from someone else's life If that is when it is act of ahimsa. Once you wake up, if you're planning to wake up at eight o'clock, I know it's very late, or six o'clock, wake up at 545. That is the time for your practice. If you're planning to sleep at nine o'clock, that after nine to 939 15, that is your time for practice. Don't steal from someone else's time, don't steal from the time that is required to pay back to the society to the family to subvert for some other responsibilities, carve out time from your own time. Just pay attention to this because this self care is what adds up to everything else. And it is it is wonderful conversing with you Anjali on this subject. And yes, there are so many programs coming up. I hope that if the listeners are inspired, they will go on the website, they will look into it. And there are three books that I have written so far. If you would like to study more about self care or yoga or mudras. There are books on each of those subjects. But I just wish that this time that we have spent together that this has beneficial to you. I don't wish for you to spend more money to get more thoughts. I hope it is thought provoking. I hope it is inspiring. I hope that it brings you back to thinking about the subject that is the most important thing.
Anjali Rao 41:26
Thank you so much. I'm sure it is and you have inspired me to start doing some of those things myself. So I so so appreciate you for your generosity and time. Thank you so much and
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